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	<title>Comments on: Negative space in operating systems</title>
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	<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/</link>
	<description>The blog of John D. Cook</description>
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		<title>By: Jan Galkowski</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/comment-page-1/#comment-115360</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan Galkowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 01:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=527#comment-115360</guid>
		<description>I am constantly working in both worlds, Unix and Windows. I find the operating system environments necessary, but annoying, and do do a fair bit of  scripting and regex-based pattern rewriting to prepare data for analysis.  Then I bring things into &lt;strong&gt;R&lt;/strong&gt; and all is well.

While I am trying to do more and more within the &lt;strong&gt;R&lt;/strong&gt; native environment, I&#039;m sure I&#039;ll never leave the inconvenience of operating systems completely behind. 

I tried Unix tools ported to Windows, but it was incomplete until I discovered &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.softintegration.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Softintegration&lt;/a&gt;&#039;s &lt;em&gt;Ch&lt;/em&gt; environment and C/C++ interpreter.  (I tend to only use the C part.) It has a shell, and you can work Unix commands there to your heart&#039;s content.  (Yes, sorry, Ch is &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; free in its most expansive version.) 

Still, having Unix in hand doesn&#039;t solve all the things I need to do, whether a simulation like &lt;em&gt;Ch&lt;/em&gt; or Linux. Sometimes I need to write things afresh (in C), and sometimes it&#039;s worth using a good, paid-for product, like a good well-regex-endowed editor, GREP-like facilities, and occasionally a DIFF-like tool.  For my work, each of these need to handle gigabyte-sized files without complaining. Even poor (Debian?) Linux seems challenged by some of the files common these days: 8 gigabyte things make some of the tools just choke.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am constantly working in both worlds, Unix and Windows. I find the operating system environments necessary, but annoying, and do do a fair bit of  scripting and regex-based pattern rewriting to prepare data for analysis.  Then I bring things into <strong>R</strong> and all is well.</p>
<p>While I am trying to do more and more within the <strong>R</strong> native environment, I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;ll never leave the inconvenience of operating systems completely behind. </p>
<p>I tried Unix tools ported to Windows, but it was incomplete until I discovered <a href="http://www.softintegration.com" rel="nofollow">Softintegration</a>&#8217;s <em>Ch</em> environment and C/C++ interpreter.  (I tend to only use the C part.) It has a shell, and you can work Unix commands there to your heart&#8217;s content.  (Yes, sorry, Ch is <em>not</em> free in its most expansive version.) </p>
<p>Still, having Unix in hand doesn&#8217;t solve all the things I need to do, whether a simulation like <em>Ch</em> or Linux. Sometimes I need to write things afresh (in C), and sometimes it&#8217;s worth using a good, paid-for product, like a good well-regex-endowed editor, GREP-like facilities, and occasionally a DIFF-like tool.  For my work, each of these need to handle gigabyte-sized files without complaining. Even poor (Debian?) Linux seems challenged by some of the files common these days: 8 gigabyte things make some of the tools just choke.</p>
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		<title>By: Software development and the myth of progress &#8212; The Endeavour</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/comment-page-1/#comment-73409</link>
		<dc:creator>Software development and the myth of progress &#8212; The Endeavour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=527#comment-73409</guid>
		<description>[...] Studio 2010 is a pig Negative space in operating systems    ? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Studio 2010 is a pig Negative space in operating systems    ? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Johannes Rössel</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/comment-page-1/#comment-54998</link>
		<dc:creator>Johannes Rössel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Dec 2010 19:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=527#comment-54998</guid>
		<description>I see two reasons why many Unix tools feel »wrong« on Windows: First of all, they are abstracted to Unix/Linux, not generally. That means they rely on the shell doing things in a certain way (e.g. globbing) which the Windows shell does not and other things. Then there are cultural differences and things you&#039;d never do on the other system. I hate poorly-ported programs that insist on creating a &lt;code&gt;.foobar&lt;/code&gt; folder in my home directory – those aren&#039;t hidden by default and therefore get in my way. On Windows there is AppData for that stuff, which still resides under my profile, but differently. Likewise I&#039;ve crashed a few makefiles or build scripts by trying to build stuff in a folder that nicluded spaces in its name. Not that that cannot be done on Unix (I did, after all), but nearly no one expects it (whereas on Windows, especially with the awkwardly-named »Documents and Settings« at least is something many people are aware of).

I think I&#039;m mostly native on Windows, although I have large parts of GNUWin32 installed. However, the only thing I use on a regular basis is &lt;code&gt;wc -l&lt;/code&gt; and it&#039;s not that that couldn&#039;t be approximated with a quick &lt;code&gt;find /c /v &quot;&quot;&lt;/code&gt;. And poorly-ported programs that literally try opening a file named &lt;code&gt;*&lt;/code&gt; need a &lt;code&gt;for %x in (*) do foobar %x&lt;/code&gt; aroudn them. You&#039;ll eventually know this stuff and adapt but indeed, it gets painful after a while. If PowerShell would start faster than 2 seconds I&#039;d probably use it a lot more (well, and I might need to look into the PowerShell integration for Far again since I&#039;m there most of the time, command-line-wise).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see two reasons why many Unix tools feel »wrong« on Windows: First of all, they are abstracted to Unix/Linux, not generally. That means they rely on the shell doing things in a certain way (e.g. globbing) which the Windows shell does not and other things. Then there are cultural differences and things you&#8217;d never do on the other system. I hate poorly-ported programs that insist on creating a <code>.foobar</code> folder in my home directory – those aren&#8217;t hidden by default and therefore get in my way. On Windows there is AppData for that stuff, which still resides under my profile, but differently. Likewise I&#8217;ve crashed a few makefiles or build scripts by trying to build stuff in a folder that nicluded spaces in its name. Not that that cannot be done on Unix (I did, after all), but nearly no one expects it (whereas on Windows, especially with the awkwardly-named »Documents and Settings« at least is something many people are aware of).</p>
<p>I think I&#8217;m mostly native on Windows, although I have large parts of GNUWin32 installed. However, the only thing I use on a regular basis is <code>wc -l</code> and it&#8217;s not that that couldn&#8217;t be approximated with a quick <code>find /c /v ""</code>. And poorly-ported programs that literally try opening a file named <code>*</code> need a <code>for %x in (*) do foobar %x</code> aroudn them. You&#8217;ll eventually know this stuff and adapt but indeed, it gets painful after a while. If PowerShell would start faster than 2 seconds I&#8217;d probably use it a lot more (well, and I might need to look into the PowerShell integration for Far again since I&#8217;m there most of the time, command-line-wise).</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/comment-page-1/#comment-31212</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 02:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=527#comment-31212</guid>
		<description>I will simple add that a Windows port of a large collection of unix tools exists at
&lt;a href=&quot;http://cygwin.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://cygwin.org/&lt;/a&gt;

In order to make many of them work, it was necessary to make a
mapping for a lot of underlying concepts (i.e. things like having
a &quot;/dev&quot; included in the filesystem)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will simple add that a Windows port of a large collection of unix tools exists at<br />
<a href="http://cygwin.org/" rel="nofollow">http://cygwin.org/</a></p>
<p>In order to make many of them work, it was necessary to make a<br />
mapping for a lot of underlying concepts (i.e. things like having<br />
a &#8220;/dev&#8221; included in the filesystem)</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/comment-page-1/#comment-11507</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=527#comment-11507</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t mean &quot;negative&quot; to have a pejorative connotation. &quot;Negative space&quot; is just the term artists use. It&#039;s an unfortunate term; simply saying &quot;space&quot; would be more accurate. I guess it&#039;s &quot;negative&quot; in the sense of a photographic negative, inverting your usual perception.  In any case, more is not always better, and what&#039;s not there can be valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t mean &#8220;negative&#8221; to have a pejorative connotation. &#8220;Negative space&#8221; is just the term artists use. It&#8217;s an unfortunate term; simply saying &#8220;space&#8221; would be more accurate. I guess it&#8217;s &#8220;negative&#8221; in the sense of a photographic negative, inverting your usual perception.  In any case, more is not always better, and what&#8217;s not there can be valuable.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexandre Dulaunoy</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/comment-page-1/#comment-11496</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexandre Dulaunoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2008 09:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=527#comment-11496</guid>
		<description>&quot;I think the reason why few people use Unix tools on Windows is a sort of negative space&quot; 

Yes, Windows is a negative space especially for the Unix tools. Just have a look at the file(system) naming scheme under Windows that broke all the standard Unix tools. Cygwin tried to circumvent such behaviour but you can forget to move a script from any Unix-like operating system to the Windows. It&#039;s better to stay under Unix.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I think the reason why few people use Unix tools on Windows is a sort of negative space&#8221; </p>
<p>Yes, Windows is a negative space especially for the Unix tools. Just have a look at the file(system) naming scheme under Windows that broke all the standard Unix tools. Cygwin tried to circumvent such behaviour but you can forget to move a script from any Unix-like operating system to the Windows. It&#8217;s better to stay under Unix.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/comment-page-1/#comment-11449</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 00:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=527#comment-11449</guid>
		<description>Daniel,

You&#039;re right. Making Window Unix-like or making Unix Windows-like is never going to be satisfying. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

I&#039;m surprised nobody has brought up OS X. Apple goes a great job of managing negative space. 

As for PowerShell, it did not ship with Vista by default, but it is supposed to ship with Window 7. And it ships with servers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel,</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right. Making Window Unix-like or making Unix Windows-like is never going to be satisfying. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m surprised nobody has brought up OS X. Apple goes a great job of managing negative space. </p>
<p>As for PowerShell, it did not ship with Vista by default, but it is supposed to ship with Window 7. And it ships with servers.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Lemire</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/comment-page-1/#comment-11437</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Lemire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 17:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=527#comment-11437</guid>
		<description>Does Powershell comes with Vista by default? I think not.

You can get Windows to be Unix-like, as you could get any OS to mimick any other OS... however, the devil is in the details. Small things that you will never get working like you need to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does Powershell comes with Vista by default? I think not.</p>
<p>You can get Windows to be Unix-like, as you could get any OS to mimick any other OS&#8230; however, the devil is in the details. Small things that you will never get working like you need to.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/comment-page-1/#comment-11348</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 02:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=527#comment-11348</guid>
		<description>Sarah, 

It&#039;s funny, but Microsoft has discovered the command line and created an object oriented shell, PowerShell. It&#039;s becoming easier to do administration via scripts, especially things like working with Active Directory and Exchange.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah, </p>
<p>It&#8217;s funny, but Microsoft has discovered the command line and created an object oriented shell, PowerShell. It&#8217;s becoming easier to do administration via scripts, especially things like working with Active Directory and Exchange.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/comment-page-1/#comment-11346</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 02:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=527#comment-11346</guid>
		<description>Fascinating point.

A lot of people continued/continue to do stuff from the command line using old DOS commands.  I&#039;m not sure whether that&#039;s even still possible in modern Windows OS?  But in, say, Windows 95 it was still often easier to pop open the command window and fix a problem there rather than to try to navigate the gui.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating point.</p>
<p>A lot of people continued/continue to do stuff from the command line using old DOS commands.  I&#8217;m not sure whether that&#8217;s even still possible in modern Windows OS?  But in, say, Windows 95 it was still often easier to pop open the command window and fix a problem there rather than to try to navigate the gui.</p>
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		<title>By: gappy</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/comment-page-1/#comment-11336</link>
		<dc:creator>gappy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=527#comment-11336</guid>
		<description>I admit I have not used the fabled Powershell, but many Unix tools on Windows leave a bitter aftertaste, mostly because they were thought and implemented in a bash/tch/korn context. ipython, for example, feels like a hack. MINGW is not nearly as well integrated in Windows. Try to add libraries: in Linux, adding ATLAS is one click away, in windows, it&#039;s complicated. I could provide more examples, but you get the point. Powershell is built from the ground up, hence the difference. However, I venture to say that a lot up people used bash/pithon/perl for their scripting needs, and very few use the Powershell (I learned about it on this blog, and I work for an IT Big Multinational...). 

To every OS its role and strengths.  Windows is not very friendly toward ported tools, but has the best consumer applications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I admit I have not used the fabled Powershell, but many Unix tools on Windows leave a bitter aftertaste, mostly because they were thought and implemented in a bash/tch/korn context. ipython, for example, feels like a hack. MINGW is not nearly as well integrated in Windows. Try to add libraries: in Linux, adding ATLAS is one click away, in windows, it&#8217;s complicated. I could provide more examples, but you get the point. Powershell is built from the ground up, hence the difference. However, I venture to say that a lot up people used bash/pithon/perl for their scripting needs, and very few use the Powershell (I learned about it on this blog, and I work for an IT Big Multinational&#8230;). </p>
<p>To every OS its role and strengths.  Windows is not very friendly toward ported tools, but has the best consumer applications.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/comment-page-1/#comment-11330</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:58:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=527#comment-11330</guid>
		<description>I started out programming on Unix. When moved over to Windows, I brought my favorite Unix tools with me: emacs, grep, etc.  I soon decided that it was easier to go native. Every so often I&#039;d try to come up with a best-of-both-worlds synthesis, but it never worked. It&#039;s easier to use one tool chain or the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I started out programming on Unix. When moved over to Windows, I brought my favorite Unix tools with me: emacs, grep, etc.  I soon decided that it was easier to go native. Every so often I&#8217;d try to come up with a best-of-both-worlds synthesis, but it never worked. It&#8217;s easier to use one tool chain or the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Sohail</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/comment-page-1/#comment-11328</link>
		<dc:creator>Sohail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=527#comment-11328</guid>
		<description>The first thing I used to do was to install all the Unix tools on Windows. I&#039;ve stopped that practice in the hopes of giving the default Windows tools a chance.

Oh it is painful. So painful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first thing I used to do was to install all the Unix tools on Windows. I&#8217;ve stopped that practice in the hopes of giving the default Windows tools a chance.</p>
<p>Oh it is painful. So painful.</p>
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		<title>By: Yoav</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/12/23/negative-space-operating-systems/comment-page-1/#comment-11327</link>
		<dc:creator>Yoav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:01:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=527#comment-11327</guid>
		<description>makes sense, people say that they like things because it is just as in the right place for them on the complexity / simplicity scale in terms of their needs</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>makes sense, people say that they like things because it is just as in the right place for them on the complexity / simplicity scale in terms of their needs</p>
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