Comments on: Poverty versus squalor

By: gwern

gwern — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 04:16:50 +0000

> I don’t know what I think of Graham’s assertion that the poor live cheap imitations of the lifestyles of the rich.

How about ghetto blacks? I understand that the whole hip-hop clothing-complex started as imitations of the rich.

By: Chicks in SF. « The New Boredom

Chicks in SF. « The New Boredom — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:01:02 +0000

[...] other news, here’s something interesting to consider- the difference between living in poverty and squalor. It’s maybe not completely accurate but it certainly is an interesting paradigm in which you [...]

By: mike d. » Poverty vs. Squalar

mike d. » Poverty vs. Squalar — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:12:03 +0000

[...] think this is a weak software company analogy, though I like the initial discussion on creating beauty for your own particular salary level. That [...]

By: Nathan

Nathan — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:08:18 +0000

@John Interesting distinction between the two categories. Poverty supported by abundant materialism (which seems and odd combo) is definitely I see in my neighborhood.

@Sue Have you read ‘The High Price of Materialism’. It examines some of the empirical research that has been done over the years related to this topic. One of the points mentioned is that poor or disadvantaged people are actually more likely to display these materialistic tendencies in their search for security and comfort (renting the big flat screen for instance).

@Aaron I see your point and I definitely think there is a great deal of ‘fashionable poverty’ supported by rich parents. However, that does seem a little all encompassing. There are individuals, as John mentions, who chose to live more simply and are thus able to work less or on things which are more meaningful to them.

By: Haakon

Haakon — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 04:15:56 +0000

Aaron, I moved to Brooklyn with $700 and a suitcase and lived in a loft with a bunch of other similar minded kids. I worked random carpentry and construction jobs and spent my free time pursuing my passion for music. Why did we live in a loft? Because it had plenty of space for our artistic endeavors and we could make noise at all hours of the day. I don’t think any one of us were getting money from our parents. I certainly was not.

Listen, I have no problem with there being a world full of people who live in the suburbs and commute to cubicles for 50 years and then retire to Arizona. I like cell phones, Kleenex, and X-ray machines, so I’m happy that there are people out there making sure that they get manufactured and sold.

But please, for heaven’s sake, don’t look at anyone who decides to ignore that path as a privileged debutante. If that’s really how you feel, please take all of your books, records, and paintings and set them alight in your backyard.

All it takes is courage, not wealth, to lead the life that you wish.

By: tom

tom — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:29:13 +0000

Here is another example of imitation: ‘Diet’ food selections outrageously imitate foods with absurdly high amounts of calories. If you really enjoy food or cooking you can see how this marketing promotes squalor rather than poverty (in the dietary sense, I know this is a stretch!).

An example of this is the low-calorie chocolate brownie snack bar. http://www.diabeticdirect.com/low-calorie-carbrite-chocolate-brownie-1486-prd0.htm

By: Chris Brinkworth

Chris Brinkworth — Fri, 25 Sep 2009 04:22:49 +0000

Totally agree. Same with any company! You don’t need your office furniture to match – if you only do outcalls as a startup!

By: mookie

mookie — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:48:13 +0000

Oh so well put Aaron!

Being someone who has experienced both sides of the fence, as a highly qualified accountant who turned to the arts, there is a lot to be said about “starving artists” who are incredibly well supported by indulgent benefactors.

By: Aaron Evans

Aaron Evans — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:11:51 +0000

While 200 years ago living in a warehouse wasn’t always a step up from living in a house, ever since they’ve been “converted” it has been a position of wealth. The starving artists of the 1800s might not have been living in the mansions of their indulgent parents, they certainly lived better than anyone who had ever set foot in an “unconverted” warehouse — including foremen.

It’s not like the rest of us prefer cramped rooms with low ceilings and enjoy long commutes to drudgerous jobs. It’s that we don’t have wealthy indulgent parents (or friends with wealthy indulgent parents to mooch off of) and the luxury of indolently wasting time wondering what to do with our boundless leisure (besides writing romantic memoirs about our sufferings in poverty which carefully exclude mention our generous stipends –squandered on riotous living– and assiduously omit the squalor.)

By: Janne

Janne — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:52:58 +0000

His “poor” does not really map to the actual, really poor. Where you don’t have any car or any house at all, and where you’re not eating cheap food and going to bad schools, but having no food and not having money (or time, same thing) for any schooling whatsoever.

If you have a car, a house and access to food and emergency medical care, you’re not poor in any absolute sense. Of course, that doesn’t mean you’re not deprived or disadvantaged, but I feel that poverty is a strong enough word that it should be reserved for those with an absolute lack or insufficiency of necessities. There should be a word for this next level above poverty, though I am not currently able to think of one.

By: John

John — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:46:48 +0000

Sue, I had a similar experience when my wife and I were living on my grad student stipend.

By: Sue VanHattum

Sue VanHattum — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:23:18 +0000

I don’t know how it would apply to the software analogy, or how widespread it is, but I can verify that notion is sometimes true. Not a ‘bohemian artist’ but a ’starving student’, I didn’t starve. I had no car until I was 25. I’ve never bought myself a TV. Etc. I had plenty materially when I was young, and though the materially lean years lasted a long time, I knew I could have plenty eventually. A woman I’m very close to now grew up poor. She has a large screen TV that she’s probably paying on credit for. She’s done the rental furniture thing. (Expensive!) She went on a cruise while poor. To me, her financial choices seem crazy. But I think she’d tell you they’re common.

She says knowing me has changed her thinking. She has a baby, and now buys lots of his clothes at Thrift Town, which she never would have done before. I buy as much as I can secondhand for the Earth’s sake.