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	<title>Comments on: Circle of fifths and number theory</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/10/02/circle-of-fifths-number-theory/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/10/02/circle-of-fifths-number-theory/</link>
	<description>The blog of John D. Cook</description>
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		<title>By: Jared Updike</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/10/02/circle-of-fifths-number-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-48388</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared Updike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Oct 2010 20:14:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=3328#comment-48388</guid>
		<description>@Ien, @AntiSlice: That&#039;s right. It&#039;s D# F## A#, it&#039;s the V chord in the key of g# minor (i.e. harmonic minor).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ien, @AntiSlice: That&#8217;s right. It&#8217;s D# F## A#, it&#8217;s the V chord in the key of g# minor (i.e. harmonic minor).</p>
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		<title>By: AntiSlice</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/10/02/circle-of-fifths-number-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-48378</link>
		<dc:creator>AntiSlice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Oct 2010 18:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=3328#comment-48378</guid>
		<description>I think you mean A#?  You need a perfect fifth between the root and, well, fifth.  It&#039;s still the V in G# though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you mean A#?  You need a perfect fifth between the root and, well, fifth.  It&#8217;s still the V in G# though.</p>
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		<title>By: len</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/10/02/circle-of-fifths-number-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-40915</link>
		<dc:creator>len</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 16:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=3328#comment-40915</guid>
		<description>@jared:  D# F## G# (V in the key of G#).  Useful form for blues with Cm7 as root I.  Slightly impractical for most common notation.  Ab is more practical.

Very nice web chord app, BTW.    I use GuitarePro which also has excellent facilities for chord exploration particularly when paired to scale alternatives.   A pet wish of mine is something similar for the raga systems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jared:  D# F## G# (V in the key of G#).  Useful form for blues with Cm7 as root I.  Slightly impractical for most common notation.  Ab is more practical.</p>
<p>Very nice web chord app, BTW.    I use GuitarePro which also has excellent facilities for chord exploration particularly when paired to scale alternatives.   A pet wish of mine is something similar for the raga systems.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared Updike</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/10/02/circle-of-fifths-number-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-25512</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared Updike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 19:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=3328#comment-25512</guid>
		<description>Pretty funny story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pretty funny story.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/10/02/circle-of-fifths-number-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-25510</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 18:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=3328#comment-25510</guid>
		<description>Jared, yes I&#039;m familiar with Schoenberg. I have a funny story about him.

I went to an organ concert while I was in college. I forget who was performing, but he was amazing. As part of the concert, he improvised fugues on themes handed to him on stage that had been prepared earlier. As I was leaving the concert, I told a friend who had not been there about the improvisations. I mentioned that one of the themes sounded like a Schoenberg tone row. (I didn&#039;t know for certain that it was a tone row, only that it sounded weird.) I thought that was a dirty trick, but the organist took it in stride and improvised a fugue to the theme. A music professor overheard our conversation and approached me. He was impressed that I recognized the tone row but disappointed when I told him I was not a music major.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jared, yes I&#8217;m familiar with Schoenberg. I have a funny story about him.</p>
<p>I went to an organ concert while I was in college. I forget who was performing, but he was amazing. As part of the concert, he improvised fugues on themes handed to him on stage that had been prepared earlier. As I was leaving the concert, I told a friend who had not been there about the improvisations. I mentioned that one of the themes sounded like a Schoenberg tone row. (I didn&#8217;t know for certain that it was a tone row, only that it sounded weird.) I thought that was a dirty trick, but the organist took it in stride and improvised a fugue to the theme. A music professor overheard our conversation and approached me. He was impressed that I recognized the tone row but disappointed when I told him I was not a music major.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared Updike</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/10/02/circle-of-fifths-number-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-25509</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared Updike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 18:27:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=3328#comment-25509</guid>
		<description>Great overview of the twelve-tone scale. I wanted to add that I think the scale is common not just because the fourth and fifth are pleasant to the ear, but also because the physics behind those intervals is so easy to stumble upon and re-discover: harmonics on a plucked string (simple guitar), blowing on a bottle (simple flute), buzzing one&#039;s lips on a (literal animal) horn or seashell (simple bugle or trumpet with no valves), etc. No wonder so many cultures discovered the basics of (some subset of) twelve-tone harmony.

Are you familiar with the composer Arnold Schoenberg? He decided to create scales (&quot;tone rows&quot;) by more irregular permutations of all twelve tones and compose music from these new musical beasts. The math behind it may be of interest:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-tone_technique

Last, I&#039;ll leave everyone with a deceptively simple puzzle to test their knowledge of basic harmony and the circle of fifths. What are the proper note names (not just the enharmonics--too easy!) for the chord D# major and in what key will you find it? What is its diatonic functionality in this key?

It turns out that learning how to answer that question properly (for me) resulted in a month of study where I learned basic music theory (basic harmony). Of course to test how much I really understood I taught my knowledge to a computer:

http://www.updike.org/uchord4/

This guitar/piano chord finder turns this simple list of 75 guitar chord forms:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p31a0PLmUWUiwYILN4F-_MQ&amp;single=true&amp;gid=0&amp;output=html

into 928 guitar chords. (It also has the answer to the puzzle if you poke around enough.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great overview of the twelve-tone scale. I wanted to add that I think the scale is common not just because the fourth and fifth are pleasant to the ear, but also because the physics behind those intervals is so easy to stumble upon and re-discover: harmonics on a plucked string (simple guitar), blowing on a bottle (simple flute), buzzing one&#8217;s lips on a (literal animal) horn or seashell (simple bugle or trumpet with no valves), etc. No wonder so many cultures discovered the basics of (some subset of) twelve-tone harmony.</p>
<p>Are you familiar with the composer Arnold Schoenberg? He decided to create scales (&#8221;tone rows&#8221;) by more irregular permutations of all twelve tones and compose music from these new musical beasts. The math behind it may be of interest:<br />
  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-tone_technique" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-tone_technique</a></p>
<p>Last, I&#8217;ll leave everyone with a deceptively simple puzzle to test their knowledge of basic harmony and the circle of fifths. What are the proper note names (not just the enharmonics&#8211;too easy!) for the chord D# major and in what key will you find it? What is its diatonic functionality in this key?</p>
<p>It turns out that learning how to answer that question properly (for me) resulted in a month of study where I learned basic music theory (basic harmony). Of course to test how much I really understood I taught my knowledge to a computer:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.updike.org/uchord4/" rel="nofollow">http://www.updike.org/uchord4/</a></p>
<p>This guitar/piano chord finder turns this simple list of 75 guitar chord forms:</p>
<p><a href="http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p31a0PLmUWUiwYILN4F-_MQ&amp;single=true&amp;gid=0&amp;output=html" rel="nofollow">http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p31a0PLmUWUiwYILN4F-_MQ&amp;single=true&amp;gid=0&amp;output=html</a></p>
<p>into 928 guitar chords. (It also has the answer to the puzzle if you poke around enough.)</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/10/02/circle-of-fifths-number-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-25425</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 02:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=3328#comment-25425</guid>
		<description>Yes, this is very much like arithmetic mod 12, just like adding times on a clock.  

You could think of an infinite range of notes of the form &lt;em&gt;k r&lt;sup&gt;n&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/em&gt; where &lt;em&gt;r&lt;/em&gt; is the 12th root of 2 and &lt;em&gt;k&lt;/em&gt; is your reference pitch, say 440 for A 440. Then map each note &lt;em&gt;k r&lt;sup&gt;n&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/em&gt; to the remainder when &lt;em&gt;n&lt;/em&gt; is divided by 12.

In group theory terminology, 7 is a generator of the group Z&lt;sub&gt;12&lt;/sub&gt; and so you can solve 7&lt;em&gt;x&lt;/em&gt; = &lt;em&gt;b&lt;/em&gt; (mod 12) for any &lt;em&gt;b&lt;/em&gt;. The generators are 1, 5, 7, and 11 and so these correspond to intervals that will generate all the notes in the chromatic scale. There&#039;s no circle of major thirds, for example, because 4 is not a generator of Z&lt;sub&gt;12&lt;/sub&gt;. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, this is very much like arithmetic mod 12, just like adding times on a clock.  </p>
<p>You could think of an infinite range of notes of the form <em>k r<sup>n</sup></em> where <em>r</em> is the 12th root of 2 and <em>k</em> is your reference pitch, say 440 for A 440. Then map each note <em>k r<sup>n</sup></em> to the remainder when <em>n</em> is divided by 12.</p>
<p>In group theory terminology, 7 is a generator of the group Z<sub>12</sub> and so you can solve 7<em>x</em> = <em>b</em> (mod 12) for any <em>b</em>. The generators are 1, 5, 7, and 11 and so these correspond to intervals that will generate all the notes in the chromatic scale. There&#8217;s no circle of major thirds, for example, because 4 is not a generator of Z<sub>12</sub>.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Regan</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2009/10/02/circle-of-fifths-number-theory/comment-page-1/#comment-25424</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Regan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 01:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=3328#comment-25424</guid>
		<description>Very cool.

I&#039;m trying to visualize the cycles  in terms of powers, like in modular arithmetic. For example, for the circle of 5ths, I compute 2^(7/12) mod 2 (loosely speaking) :

1.  1 * 2^(7/12) = 2^(7/12)
2.  2^(7/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(14/12) 
3.  2^(2/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(9/12) 
4.  2^(9/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(16/12) 
5.  2^(4/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(11/12) 
6.  2^(11/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(18/12) 
7.  2^(6/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(13/12) 
8.  2^(1/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(8/12) 
9.  2^(8/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(15/12) 
10.  2^(3/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(10/12) 
11.  2^(10/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(17/12) 
12.  2^(5/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(12/12) 
13.  1 * 2^(7/12) = 2^(7/12)
...

Is that how you think of it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very cool.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m trying to visualize the cycles  in terms of powers, like in modular arithmetic. For example, for the circle of 5ths, I compute 2^(7/12) mod 2 (loosely speaking) :</p>
<p>1.  1 * 2^(7/12) = 2^(7/12)<br />
2.  2^(7/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(14/12)<br />
3.  2^(2/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(9/12)<br />
4.  2^(9/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(16/12)<br />
5.  2^(4/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(11/12)<br />
6.  2^(11/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(18/12)<br />
7.  2^(6/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(13/12)<br />
8.  2^(1/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(8/12)<br />
9.  2^(8/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(15/12)<br />
10.  2^(3/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(10/12)<br />
11.  2^(10/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(17/12)<br />
12.  2^(5/12) * 2^(7/12) = 2^(12/12)<br />
13.  1 * 2^(7/12) = 2^(7/12)<br />
&#8230;</p>
<p>Is that how you think of it?</p>
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