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	<title>Comments on: How many errors are left to find?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/</link>
	<description>The blog of John D. Cook</description>
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		<title>By: Shmuel Gershon</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-43463</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel Gershon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Aug 2010 07:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-43463</guid>
		<description>John, this is an interesting post.
You are right when you say that there many assumtions under it.
The ones you mention (all bugs are equally hard, chances of finding a bug are independent) but also a lot of other assumptions, that makes the index irrelevant.

The asumptions that &quot;bugs of a certain kind to be equally hard to find&quot;, for example, is doubtful.
The text also (wrongly) assumes that:
- Testing only involves finding bugs
- There is a finite number of bugs
- There&#039;s value in finding all bugs
- There is a clear definition of what a bug is
- The testing task is done when &quot;all bugs are found&quot;
- Testers are able (or try) to estimate the number of bugs when they test or finish testing
- Knowing all these numbers (if they were real) would have any benefit.

I can&#039;t see any benefit of using the index  a real project. If anything, it looks dangerous.
Do you have a real-life experience of using it in a project? What kind of conclusions were drawn?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, this is an interesting post.<br />
You are right when you say that there many assumtions under it.<br />
The ones you mention (all bugs are equally hard, chances of finding a bug are independent) but also a lot of other assumptions, that makes the index irrelevant.</p>
<p>The asumptions that &#8220;bugs of a certain kind to be equally hard to find&#8221;, for example, is doubtful.<br />
The text also (wrongly) assumes that:<br />
- Testing only involves finding bugs<br />
- There is a finite number of bugs<br />
- There&#8217;s value in finding all bugs<br />
- There is a clear definition of what a bug is<br />
- The testing task is done when &#8220;all bugs are found&#8221;<br />
- Testers are able (or try) to estimate the number of bugs when they test or finish testing<br />
- Knowing all these numbers (if they were real) would have any benefit.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t see any benefit of using the index  a real project. If anything, it looks dangerous.<br />
Do you have a real-life experience of using it in a project? What kind of conclusions were drawn?</p>
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		<title>By: EastwoodDC</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41894</link>
		<dc:creator>EastwoodDC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 01:21:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41894</guid>
		<description>I recall that Petersen estimator has a lot of the same problems that Michael B. mentions in his post, and more, because animal populations are literally moving targets. I don&#039;t agree to his criticism that it is a silly idea though. It&#039;s a simple estimator based on very simple assumptions. Is it flawed? Yes. As we well know, &quot;All models are wrong, but some are useful.&quot;  If you need to make this sort of estimate, and are willing to accept the accompanying assumptions, it is still the right approach to the problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recall that Petersen estimator has a lot of the same problems that Michael B. mentions in his post, and more, because animal populations are literally moving targets. I don&#8217;t agree to his criticism that it is a silly idea though. It&#8217;s a simple estimator based on very simple assumptions. Is it flawed? Yes. As we well know, &#8220;All models are wrong, but some are useful.&#8221;  If you need to make this sort of estimate, and are willing to accept the accompanying assumptions, it is still the right approach to the problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Math teachers at play carnival #28, P.S. &#124; CTK Insights</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41811</link>
		<dc:creator>Math teachers at play carnival #28, P.S. &#124; CTK Insights</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jul 2010 16:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41811</guid>
		<description>[...] Endeavor blog, writes about the Lincoln Index which is commonly applied to population estimates. As John shows, the index reliably estimates the number of errors that cropped up in a computer program &#8211; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Endeavor blog, writes about the Lincoln Index which is commonly applied to population estimates. As John shows, the index reliably estimates the number of errors that cropped up in a computer program &#8211; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention How many errors are left to find? — The Endeavour -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41735</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention How many errors are left to find? — The Endeavour -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:05:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41735</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Michael Bolton. Michael Bolton said: Blogged: Another Silly Quantitative Model http://bit.ly/dymGGe in reply to http://bit.ly/aF2med #testing #softwaretesting #qa [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Michael Bolton. Michael Bolton said: Blogged: Another Silly Quantitative Model <a href="http://bit.ly/dymGGe" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/dymGGe</a> in reply to <a href="http://bit.ly/aF2med" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/aF2med</a> #testing #softwaretesting #qa [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Bolton</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41730</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bolton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41730</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve responded to this post &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.developsense.com/blog/2010/07/another-silly-quantitative-model/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt;

---Michael B.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve responded to this post <a href="http://www.developsense.com/blog/2010/07/another-silly-quantitative-model/" rel="nofollow">here.</a></p>
<p>&#8212;Michael B.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward Kmett</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41726</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Kmett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41726</guid>
		<description>Munim: actually the index only works if the testers are searching separately.

Finding the same bug under an assumption that each bug would be found randomly with something along the same probability gives an estimator for the total number of bugs by conditional probability.

When the index yields infinity it is because no reasonable estimate of the upper bound exists. When two testers find a disjoint set of bugs, you have no relative scale to fall back on. The the absence of overlap, you need some other form of  information to estimate overall bug count.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Munim: actually the index only works if the testers are searching separately.</p>
<p>Finding the same bug under an assumption that each bug would be found randomly with something along the same probability gives an estimator for the total number of bugs by conditional probability.</p>
<p>When the index yields infinity it is because no reasonable estimate of the upper bound exists. When two testers find a disjoint set of bugs, you have no relative scale to fall back on. The the absence of overlap, you need some other form of  information to estimate overall bug count.</p>
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		<title>By: Munim</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41716</link>
		<dc:creator>Munim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 10:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41716</guid>
		<description>Nice work. 
Like you mentioned, this index is probably not very useful in actually estimating the number of bugs. 

For a relatively bug free strong system, two testers finding a unique bug each would mean the index is infinity.

I think the index can be a suggestion if the testers need to work together or not.

If the index is a low number for a couple of developers, they probably test the same way and don&#039;t need to work together. If the index is high (or infinite) for two developers, they must sit and test together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice work.<br />
Like you mentioned, this index is probably not very useful in actually estimating the number of bugs. </p>
<p>For a relatively bug free strong system, two testers finding a unique bug each would mean the index is infinity.</p>
<p>I think the index can be a suggestion if the testers need to work together or not.</p>
<p>If the index is a low number for a couple of developers, they probably test the same way and don&#8217;t need to work together. If the index is high (or infinite) for two developers, they must sit and test together.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41702</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 01:03:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41702</guid>
		<description>James: True, testers collaborate and share bugs. But a company could do something like the following.

Ask the testers to work independently for a short time at the beginning of a project. Then compare bug lists and estimate the number of bugs left to find. Then work together as usual to find the rest of the bugs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James: True, testers collaborate and share bugs. But a company could do something like the following.</p>
<p>Ask the testers to work independently for a short time at the beginning of a project. Then compare bug lists and estimate the number of bugs left to find. Then work together as usual to find the rest of the bugs.</p>
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		<title>By: James Thiele</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41701</link>
		<dc:creator>James Thiele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 00:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41701</guid>
		<description>Another problem is the assumption that testers find bugs independently. In the real world testers talk to each other and if A tells B about a bug B either won&#039;t look for that bug or won&#039;t report it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another problem is the assumption that testers find bugs independently. In the real world testers talk to each other and if A tells B about a bug B either won&#8217;t look for that bug or won&#8217;t report it.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Carpenter</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41699</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Carpenter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 00:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41699</guid>
		<description>@Astrobe:   The problem is correlation at the bug level.   The results are independent of the skill of the testers, but not of the difficulty of the bugs.   That&#039;s why John points out that &quot;The index assumes all bugs are equally hard for a given tester to find. &quot;  

There&#039;s also a lot of relevant literature in epidemiology (where they need to estimate population prevalences of diseases with imperfect tests and population samples) and in educational testing (where you want to evaluate both students and exam questions).  I (and others) have been applying similar models to Mechanical Turk and other crowdsourced data annotation problems.

With enough testers, you can start estimating the difficulty of the items using something like an item-response model.   You can also tease apart accuracy versus bias, though presumably with bugs the idea is that it&#039;s all-or-nothing and there&#039;s an absolute notion of what constitutes a bug.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Astrobe:   The problem is correlation at the bug level.   The results are independent of the skill of the testers, but not of the difficulty of the bugs.   That&#8217;s why John points out that &#8220;The index assumes all bugs are equally hard for a given tester to find. &#8221;  </p>
<p>There&#8217;s also a lot of relevant literature in epidemiology (where they need to estimate population prevalences of diseases with imperfect tests and population samples) and in educational testing (where you want to evaluate both students and exam questions).  I (and others) have been applying similar models to Mechanical Turk and other crowdsourced data annotation problems.</p>
<p>With enough testers, you can start estimating the difficulty of the items using something like an item-response model.   You can also tease apart accuracy versus bias, though presumably with bugs the idea is that it&#8217;s all-or-nothing and there&#8217;s an absolute notion of what constitutes a bug.</p>
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		<title>By: Astrobe</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41693</link>
		<dc:creator>Astrobe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 21:16:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41693</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure that how hard are to find the bugs is relevant. What does it mean, &quot;hard to find&quot;? My interpretation is that a bug is harder to find when it is found only by more skilled testers.
Given that the index is independant from the skills of the testers, if my interpretation is right, it is therefore also independent from the nature of the bugs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that how hard are to find the bugs is relevant. What does it mean, &#8220;hard to find&#8221;? My interpretation is that a bug is harder to find when it is found only by more skilled testers.<br />
Given that the index is independant from the skills of the testers, if my interpretation is right, it is therefore also independent from the nature of the bugs.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41683</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41683</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Lincoln Index&lt;/i&gt;, I love it!  

EastwoodDC is right about it being the simple form of the Petersen capture-recapture estimator for population size.  The form you give is a biased estimator, you can &quot;unbias&quot; it by using N  = (E1+1)(E2+1)/(S+1) -1.  Lots more on this type of estimator in Krebs, &lt;i&gt;Ecological Methodology&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;ll add this to my lecture on capture-recapture so my bio students can see they have something in common with the comp sci kids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Lincoln Index</i>, I love it!  </p>
<p>EastwoodDC is right about it being the simple form of the Petersen capture-recapture estimator for population size.  The form you give is a biased estimator, you can &#8220;unbias&#8221; it by using N  = (E1+1)(E2+1)/(S+1) -1.  Lots more on this type of estimator in Krebs, <i>Ecological Methodology</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;ll add this to my lecture on capture-recapture so my bio students can see they have something in common with the comp sci kids.</p>
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		<title>By: [Link] How many errors are left to find? &#171; jkwiens.com</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41682</link>
		<dc:creator>[Link] How many errors are left to find? &#171; jkwiens.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41682</guid>
		<description>[...] How many errors are left to find? (The Endeavour)Fortune cookie (The Endeavour)Fortune cookie (The Endeavour)SciPy and NumPy for .NET (The Endeavour)Python Internals: Adding a new statement to Python (Hacker News)My [husband] works for Electronic Arts, I&#039;m ... a disgruntled spouse. (2004) (Hacker News)Cameron Herold: Let&#039;s raise kids to be entrepreneurs - Cameron Herold (2010) (TEDTalks (hd))A real Turing machine (www.mgroves.com) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] How many errors are left to find? (The Endeavour)Fortune cookie (The Endeavour)Fortune cookie (The Endeavour)SciPy and NumPy for .NET (The Endeavour)Python Internals: Adding a new statement to Python (Hacker News)My [husband] works for Electronic Arts, I&#39;m &#8230; a disgruntled spouse. (2004) (Hacker News)Cameron Herold: Let&#39;s raise kids to be entrepreneurs &#8211; Cameron Herold (2010) (TEDTalks (hd))A real Turing machine (www.mgroves.com) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: EastwoodDC</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41679</link>
		<dc:creator>EastwoodDC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41679</guid>
		<description>This is very similar to Capture-Recapture (Mark-and-Recapture) estimates used for estimating population sizes in wildlife studies. --- And a Google search shows me it is exactly the same thing --- Silly me, but it&#039;s been a while since I looked at this.

This can apply to more than just programming; In doing statistical analysis, I&#039;m always on the lookout for possible problems in the data. Given that I occasionally find problems that others have missed, I often worry about the ones that got away, and how many studies are skewed by bad data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is very similar to Capture-Recapture (Mark-and-Recapture) estimates used for estimating population sizes in wildlife studies. &#8212; And a Google search shows me it is exactly the same thing &#8212; Silly me, but it&#8217;s been a while since I looked at this.</p>
<p>This can apply to more than just programming; In doing statistical analysis, I&#8217;m always on the lookout for possible problems in the data. Given that I occasionally find problems that others have missed, I often worry about the ones that got away, and how many studies are skewed by bad data.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt McDonnell</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41677</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt McDonnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:59:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41677</guid>
		<description>A short MATLAB version:
 lincoln = @(a,b) sum(a).*sum(b)./sum(a&amp;b); 

simulate=@(eCount,p1,p2,reps) ...
  lincoln(rand(eCount,reps)&lt;p1,rand(eCount,reps)&lt;p2);

simulate(100,0.4,0.3,100)

See what happens when you vary p1 and p2:
f=@(p,q) mean(simulate(100,p,q,1e3));
x=linspace(0,1,20);
[XX,YY]=meshgrid(x,x);
PP = arrayfun(f,XX,YY);
surf(XX,YY,PP)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A short MATLAB version:<br />
 lincoln = @(a,b) sum(a).*sum(b)./sum(a&amp;b); </p>
<p>simulate=@(eCount,p1,p2,reps) &#8230;<br />
  lincoln(rand(eCount,reps)&lt;p1,rand(eCount,reps)&lt;p2);</p>
<p>simulate(100,0.4,0.3,100)</p>
<p>See what happens when you vary p1 and p2:<br />
f=@(p,q) mean(simulate(100,p,q,1e3));<br />
x=linspace(0,1,20);<br />
[XX,YY]=meshgrid(x,x);<br />
PP = arrayfun(f,XX,YY);<br />
surf(XX,YY,PP)</p>
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		<title>By: David Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41673</link>
		<dc:creator>David Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41673</guid>
		<description>There is a little more background on this estimate over at bit-player:
http://bit-player.org/2010/the-thrill-of-the-chase</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a little more background on this estimate over at bit-player:<br />
<a href="http://bit-player.org/2010/the-thrill-of-the-chase" rel="nofollow">http://bit-player.org/2010/the-thrill-of-the-chase</a></p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41671</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41671</guid>
		<description>Walt: Thanks for catching my mistake. I updated the post with a correction. The simulation results were for 30 and 40 percent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Walt: Thanks for catching my mistake. I updated the post with a correction. The simulation results were for 30 and 40 percent.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41670</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41670</guid>
		<description>John, in the text you gave 30%, 40% as an example, but the sample call line has 25%, 30%.  Just curious which one you actually generated your statistics with.

The derivative with respect to each of the E&#039;s is constant, so a deviation in E from the expected value will impose an corresponding percentage change in the value n from the true value.  You can always hope that the two deviations in E will have opposite signs and still give a good n.

It looks like the variation in S will be more critical, just because it is a smaller value to start with.  It&#039;s still proportional for small changes.

It would be interesting to work up what the correction factor is as a function of the assumed correlation between the E&#039;s.  You could then determine how robust your n was under varying assumptions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, in the text you gave 30%, 40% as an example, but the sample call line has 25%, 30%.  Just curious which one you actually generated your statistics with.</p>
<p>The derivative with respect to each of the E&#8217;s is constant, so a deviation in E from the expected value will impose an corresponding percentage change in the value n from the true value.  You can always hope that the two deviations in E will have opposite signs and still give a good n.</p>
<p>It looks like the variation in S will be more critical, just because it is a smaller value to start with.  It&#8217;s still proportional for small changes.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to work up what the correction factor is as a function of the assumed correlation between the E&#8217;s.  You could then determine how robust your n was under varying assumptions.</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention How many errors are left to find? — The Endeavour -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2010/07/13/lincoln-index/comment-page-1/#comment-41669</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention How many errors are left to find? — The Endeavour -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.johndcook.com/blog/?p=5857#comment-41669</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by John D. Cook. John D. Cook said: Simple trick for estimating how many errors are left to find http://bit.ly/dd6gcC [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by John D. Cook. John D. Cook said: Simple trick for estimating how many errors are left to find <a href="http://bit.ly/dd6gcC" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/dd6gcC</a> [...]</p>
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