Interview with Clojure author

Simple-talk has an interview with Rich Hickey, author of the programming language Clojure (pronounced “closure”). Clojure is a dialect of Lisp designed to run on top of the Java Virtual Machine. The language is also being ported to the .NET framework as Clojure CLR.

Two things stood out to me in the interview: a comparison of Lisp with C++, and a discussion of complexity.

You’ll often hear a programmer argue that language X is better than language Y.  To support their argument, they’ll say they wrote a program in Y, then wrote it in X in less time. For example, someone might argue that Ruby is better than Python because they were able to rewrite their web site using Ruby in half the time it took to write the original Python version. Such arguments are weak because you can write anything faster the second time. The first implementation required analysis and design that the second implementation can reuse entirely or at least learn from.

Rich Hickey argues that he can develop programs in Lisp faster than in C++. He offers as support that he first wrote something in Lisp and then took three times longer to rewrite it in C++. This is just a personal anecdote, not a scientific study, but it carries more weight than the usual anecdote because he’s claiming the first language was more efficient than the second.

In his discussion of incidental complexity, complexity coming from ones tools rather than from the intrinsic complexity of the problem being solved, Hickey says

I think programmers have become inured to incidental complexity, in particular by confusing familiar or concise with simple. And when they encounter complexity, they consider it a challenge to overcome, rather than an obstacle to remove. Overcoming complexity isn’t work, it’s waste.

The phrase “confusing familiar or concise with simple” is insightful. I never appreciated the arguments about the complexity of C++ until I got a little distance from the language; C++ was so familiar I didn’t appreciate how complex it is until I had a break from writing it. Also, simple solutions are usually concise, but concise solutions may not be simple. I chuckle whenever I hear someone say a problem was simple to solve because they were able to solve it in one line — one long stream of entirely mysterious commands.

Thanks to Omar Gomez for pointing out the interview article.

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